Belkin’s Jyoti Malik on Agentic Commerce: Audit Data Quality Before Chasing AI Agents

Bryan Mahoney

Welcome back to another episode of the Brilliant Commerce Podcast, where I get a chance to sit down with some of the brightest minds in commerce behind what I like to call iconic, or soon-to-be-iconic, brands. Today we're getting a chance to meet with someone who is truly at one of those iconic brands. So joining me today is Jyoti Malik, who is the Senior Director of E-commerce at Belkin. I'm actually holding on to one of my favorite things from Belkin right now, and it's this — it's a magnetized device that I put on the back of my iPhone. Whenever I'm traveling, I use my iPhone as my webcam, and I think it is absolutely ingenious. I've been a customer of Belkin for at least ten or fifteen years. So I'm really excited that you agreed to join me here today, and excited to learn more about your role and your background, and some of what you and the team are working on at Belkin today. So, Jyoti, thank you for joining me.

Jyoti Malik

Absolutely happy to be here, and thanks for having me.

Bryan Mahoney

Before we get into some of these hard-hitting questions — where am I finding you today?

Jyoti Malik

I am based in Seattle.

Bryan Mahoney

Seattle, awesome. All right, how's the weather today? Is it what everyone says about Seattle — is it raining all the time?

Jyoti Malik

Not all the time. It rains a fair bit and it has its own charm — at least, I feel that way now, after ten years of being here. It's quite pleasant.

Bryan Mahoney

So, ten years — you've had a really interesting career, at a number of really impressive brands. Tell me a little bit about your trajectory and what led you to Belkin.

Jyoti Malik

Sure. So I started my career in retail — branded retail product management. I really loved that part. Then, post-MBA, around the time online commerce was getting bigger, I was very curious about it, and that seemed like the next place to go. So I've been in e-commerce since then. First in consulting for a couple of years — omnichannel e-commerce consulting for retail and consumer goods clients. Everyone was trying to figure out what their five-year roadmap, three-year roadmap should be. A lot of analytics-related work, because data and e-com kind of go hand in hand. Then I moved to industry, starting with Amazon — so on the channel side I spent some time — and I've been on the brand side, primarily consumer electronics, for the last couple of years, in commercially-oriented roles very close to e-commerce. What brought me to Belkin was the opportunity to work on our North America digital business, which has the marketplaces, direct-to-consumer, as well as the emerging channels. That's really exciting, because there's so much going on in e-commerce right now — things are evolving fast. Last year we weren't talking about agentic e-commerce. Now we all are. So, yeah, it's a really interesting space to be in.

Bryan Mahoney

Is there one thing in particular that drew you to commerce? I think the background in product management is fascinating — Amazon's obviously an incredible school. But when I speak to a lot of people in technology, they say e-commerce is a solved problem, there's nothing to innovate there. I don't believe that to be true — we're in it. So I'm curious what drew you into commerce.

Jyoti Malik

What drew me into it, and what has kept me in it, is — in e-commerce you're essentially running all aspects of a business. You have to focus on the P&L, look near-term, long-term, all of those things. But really, I don't think it's been solved yet. I think people are still trying to figure it out, and it's evolving so fast, and that's what's kept me interested — commerce is not just restricted to a store, e-comm, or a website. It's anywhere commerce at this point, and that's the interesting piece. So maybe there are people who think it's all been solved and figured out. I certainly don't think so, and it's kept me interested.

Bryan Mahoney

I am 100% with you. It's like you and I have been in the same conversations, even though we're meeting today for the first time. I love to say that commerce is everywhere — you've got to go and have conversations with your customers where they actually are, and that is not a solved problem. I do believe that's part of the foundation of what makes an iconic brand — those brands that are willing to go and create those experiences with their customers, where they are. I do think there was a lot of friction in the early days of commerce — you remember filling out those checkout forms. Now there's less and less friction, but it's harder and harder to create those conversations, or find those customers, or cut through the noise — and we'll get to AI eventually, it's inevitable we don't avoid that. But for the maybe one person who doesn't know Belkin who's going to be listening to this — talk to me a little bit about the brand and some of the products. What's given Belkin the staying power it's had over its incredible history?

Jyoti Malik

We've been around for 40-plus years. A brand that was born in California — the team's still there. It's a brand that people still hold very close, part of everyday life across the product categories it touches, from wireless accessories to connectivity solutions to B2B-oriented solutions. And then we've gone into new categories like gaming, entertainment, and audio — so we have a very wide category set. The brand really stands for quality. And the other thing we really practice, what we preach, is sustainability, in our product and in how we go to market. So I think that's given the brand its staying power — just being true to the vision, true to the commitment to quality. And, of course, trying to be good for the planet.

Bryan Mahoney

I absolutely love that — more ingredients for what it means to be iconic. It's like having these brand pillars, and fundamentally you're still creating a physical product — it's impossible to escape that. And I'm going to go back to the device I'm holding on to right now. I've bought this exact same thing for ten people that I know, because when I first got it, I'd be on calls and people would say, your video quality is amazing, what's your webcam? And I'd say, it's my phone. They'd say, but how is it holding on to your monitor? And I'd say, well, I have this thing — it's so simple, but it's so beautifully designed, and it feels really good. I'm proud to buy it for folks, and I think that's nice, when you discover that brand and you have that relationship. I didn't need to see the reviews — I just thought, oh, that's a Belkin device, that's going to be high quality. So, congrats on that product — I'm a big believer in it. I want to come back to something I think is interesting about your career — you're obviously working at a brand now, but you were working at a really important channel before, at Amazon, and you used one of my favorite buzzwords, omnichannel. How much of your job is helping the team understand how best to show up across channels, or channel diversity, or channel mix? That can be an opportunity and a challenge. As I talk to founders who got started exclusively in DTC and are thinking about either physical retail or expanding to channels like Amazon — what advice would you have for them, in today's day and age, where omnichannel is one of those new buzzwords?

Jyoti Malik

Just to clarify — you're talking about digital-native founders or leaders now expanding into broader retail. I'd say it's a reverse of the same thing we've been doing — a lot of the brands we originated in physical retail, and e-commerce was sort of an add-on that expanded from there. So there's a lot of work that needs to be done for the organization to start thinking differently. If you're going the other way, some of the same things apply — one, it's really about driving a lot of education and connecting the dots for your stakeholders. You have to start with maybe a shared opportunity or a pain point that the business needs solving. For example: we need to grow market share, how do we grow market share? We have to be where the consumer is. If you're a digital-native brand, you know that 80% of retail is still physical retail. So now you have a shared opportunity, something you can all align toward — and this also shows up in the financials. So you're seeing that, and you know you need a new approach — the approach you had as a DTC-only brand isn't necessarily going to translate as-is. If you're trying to go omnichannel, there's a lot to be considered — unless you're opening up your own stores, I'm assuming it means going through other retailers, having your presence there. So start with a pilot — that would be the one way to go. I don't try to be everywhere all at once. Start with a pilot, have a plan, but phase it, and then gradually scale as it starts to show you results. There's many other things that need to happen too — you have to bring the team together, the incentives have to be aligned, you have to have team structures that enable success. If you don't have the skill set, you have to build for it or hire for it. Literacy is important too. Going from physical retail to digital, and digital to physical, you really have to know the landscape. So I think the important piece is starting with what the shared pain point or shared opportunity is — what that means for us as a brand, what our path looks like, what learning we can take from what everybody else is doing, and how we start in a phased, structured, smaller manner. Learn, and then go from there.

Bryan Mahoney

I think that phased approach is really smart — it sort of speaks to your product management roots. How can I create the business case and ultimately test into it? These are big bets, and sometimes I think we underestimate how hard it is to establish a relationship with, say, a Target — or, going the other way, selling into Amazon. You started in physical retail, and now you need to create this online experience — it's not as easy as creating a template, launching a website, and suddenly they're going to come. I love this thinking — you've got to hire into it, and you sort of have to test into it.

Jyoti Malik

Yeah.

Bryan Mahoney

As we fast-forward — I can't believe we're in the fourth quarter of 2025 — let's zip ahead to 2026. What's one thing that needs to change for commerce leaders as we move from '25 into '26?

Jyoti Malik

I think one thing I do hope we all leave behind — and I say this every year — is thinking that digital commerce is just retail, but online. It's not as simple as listing the SKUs on a site, running some ads, having some operational setup, and running the same playbook over and over, taking it slow. That's been the physical retail playbook — established over decades. You have the four walls of a retail store, you have the planogram, the formula has worked and hasn't really shifted too much. Now, with digital commerce, it's completely changed the game. You have commerce happening through sites, but it's also happening through social media, shoppable ads, AI chat platforms. Digital commerce is not a bolt-on to the existing retail operating model, and that thinking, I think, we have to leave behind. We have to look at the way it's being done today and then assess our setup, our team, our skill set — everything for what it means to be successful in this space today — versus still being anchored to what our past operating model has been, and thinking that making some adjustments on the periphery is going to help us succeed in e-commerce, or the way commerce is happening today, which is anywhere commerce.

Bryan Mahoney

Anywhere commerce — I like that. I might steal it, and now I'm on the record saying I'm going to steal it. One of the things I like to ask people is: are we ready to drop the 'e' from commerce? Isn't it just commerce? Are we not mature enough yet — commerce happens where our customers are, and where they're interfacing with our brand, whether that's within the four walls of retail or online, on our owned channels or channels where we've chosen to show up. So is 2026 the year we shift from e-commerce to agentic commerce, and physical retail commerce to just commerce, anywhere?

Jyoti Malik

I think so — is that fair to say? Yeah, I think that time is approaching. Fifteen years ago, e-commerce was starting to take shape and people needed to give it a definition — there was a bunch of terms that went around, omnichannel, digital, this and that. E-commerce was a way for people to distinguish what they were talking about, and what the whole operating model needed to build toward. But now it's everywhere — people are browsing and checking out at the same time, the funnel has really been collapsing. So we should just think of it as commerce now. People are in-store and they can shop online, right?

Bryan Mahoney

Yeah, yeah, it's true.

Jyoti Malik

While being in the store. So, instead of thinking, oh, I have this part which is my physical retail, and then I have to add e-commerce to it, and then I have to add social to it, and then I have to add something else to it — just think about commerce. You have to be in front of the consumers, where they are. How do you engage with them, how do you make that transaction happen, and then retain that relationship? What can you learn about the consumers, how do you then stay with them through the lifecycle? I think all of that thinking has to come together. So it's not in-versus-physical anymore. It's just commerce.

Bryan Mahoney

I love that as a segue into learning and relationships. To me, one of the great things about commerce moving online is our ability, as retailers or brands, to accumulate first-party data on our customers. As someone who's a leader at an omnichannel brand, you have access to an awful lot of first-party data — and data that's not first-party too. How important is first-party data at Belkin? How do you think about it? What are some metrics that really matter? Let's dive into first-party data as a conversation, because I think it can bring us back to how the funnel is collapsing, and how you're adjusting as a marketer, and as a digital commerce leader, in that regard.

Jyoti Malik

Absolutely. I think first-party data is a competitive advantage — it can be a big advantage. What really matters, and this is where you have to look at where you are on the maturity scale, is that the quality of it matters, the quantity of it matters, and the utility is context-dependent. I'll also go a step further and say first-party data — or any data — is an advantage only if you actually act on it in a way that's meaningful for your customers and your business. So one thing we talk about — to be successful and have a meaningful relationship with the customer, especially when there's so much noise, so much choice, and limited attention, you have to be relevant to the customer. You have to approach things from a customer point of view and really remove the friction from the journey. First-party data ties well with that need — you have granular data about the customer, their every interaction with the brand in your own channels, so that can really help with understanding how they're engaging, where they're getting stuck, how to resolve that. Then things like lifecycle marketing — you can engage with them directly, one-on-one, in a setting where you're not competing for attention, where you're not there with twenty other brands. If they clicked on your email, you've got them looking at it for five seconds, ten seconds — and assuming you get them to notice and receive that invite to engage, then you're free to engage with them and learn from that interaction. Then you continuously use this data to improve things like your operations — customer service data is a rich source of insight, it helps you understand what the customer's pain points are, and why. You usually get to learn a lot about the things that help you keep the customer. Customer acquisition isn't cheap — continuously having to acquire customers, losing them, and trying to acquire new ones isn't good for the brand or the business. So really using that post-purchase data, that interaction, is very helpful. And you can engage with customers very creatively too — when you know enough about them, you can be really relevant. For example, if you have consumers local to a specific area, you can invite them to community-building efforts — just picking an example, you can create moments of delight for them. That's operating within your own channels, and then, assuming you have a sufficient quantity of good first-party data to have statistically significant insights, you can take those insights and apply them appropriately to other channels — how you engage with the consumer even in channels that aren't owned by you, like third-party retail.

Bryan Mahoney

I love that. I wish more people offered up the advice that first-party data is really important, but it can be expensive and time-consuming to accumulate. Before you, as a brand, make that investment, how do you give yourself an honest assessment of where you are on the maturity curve? Number one, how do you even define what that is? Number two, assuming you can accumulate the right amount of first-party data, do you have the team — have you hired the right people to be able to use it? Because otherwise, maybe it's not the right thing for you to invest in. I remember the early days of e-commerce — I've been on the record saying this before — I used to talk to other leaders and they'd say, 'do you know how much data I have in my data warehouse?' And I'd say, I don't know how much. 'Do you have a petabyte yet?' I'd say, well, what are you doing with it? 'Well, nothing, but we're storing it.' I'd think, well, that seems risky to me.

Jyoti Malik

One million emails. Sure, yeah.

Bryan Mahoney

Right — okay, is anyone opening your email? Are you sending the relevant content? I think that's really smart, and almost like having a checklist as you're getting started with first-party data. As an industry we're sort of told, 'first-party data, first-party data' — I think that's right, but do you have a strategy for it, can you leverage it the right way? There's been such a proliferation of point solutions that hoover up some of their own first-party data, and you're like, wait a sec, I want that too. So do you have a holistic approach, a point of view, on first-party data — and how have you developed that over time? What lessons have you — if there's one lesson you could leave people with that's been really practical, that you'd take with you to your next company and the company after that, as it relates to first-party data, for someone who's a bit earlier on the maturity curve — what might that be? This might be a hard question.

Jyoti Malik

No, I've dealt with that. I think, specifically speaking to a company that's just starting out and early on in the maturity curve — don't get lost in the buzzwords or the flashy solutions. You start searching and you have hundreds of options and so many points of view to think about, so don't get overwhelmed. I always say to my team, take a pen and paper. It's the analogy for: sit down, what do you want to do with it? Think at least a two-year time frame — where is your business going to go, and then how is your first-party data strategy going to enable where you're trying to go? It all has to be in sync, otherwise you'll just buy a solution here — maybe an email solution one year, some sort of CDP the next — but then you haven't really answered a business question. You haven't tied your business need to how this data is going to support you. So it's very important to spend a good amount of time doing that, pressure-test it a bit, and then start small. Instead of buying everything at once, start building the core of it — and then, as you're evaluating different solutions and different sources of data, ask how it's going to work together. That's very important, because in the long run what you don't want is to accumulate a lot of tech debt along the way, and then spend time ripping solutions out because the new thing doesn't talk to the old thing. So it's really important to have that view and spend a lot of time on it before you go out and bring in solutions, because these aren't short-term — they're commitments you have to see through.

Bryan Mahoney

Time to manage — and sometimes you make the investment and feel obligated to try to make it work. I think having that starting point — what's the problem we're trying to solve, what's the core — is important, because maybe part of the problem with believing commerce is a solved problem is that you have a checklist, 'I know I need to buy this,' and you're not asking what problem that's solving for you, and how you're going to use that data. I like that — just stop for a second, be really thoughtful, take out your pen, get a piece of paper, write it down, and then you can start thinking about what solutions you might need — because the solution might already be in the organization, or you might be a year early, where you don't need that solution and it's just going to be a distraction.

Jyoti Malik

Exactly. Have your list of the things you want to know about the customer that you think you will, once you have all the data — and then, out of those, start prioritizing, and figure out what's the most important question, and what question can be answered sooner.

Bryan Mahoney

What use cases are we trying to get to? At the risk of not taking the advice you just gave us, and focusing on the flashy thing — I'm curious to get your point of view on agents as customers. I just got off a call where someone was saying we've abandoned our SEO strategy and we're only thinking about GEO. I thought, okay, that's interesting. But it is true that more and more agents are going to be shopping our websites and trying to decide if our products are relevant. Do you have a formed point of view on this yet? Do you think about agents as customers? Am I thinking about that the right way? Is there another way you're thinking about making sure that if someone is searching on ChatGPT or Perplexity, Belkin is showing up as a relevant part of that conversation?

Jyoti Malik

To answer your question, I don't have a formed point of view — what I have is a forming point of view, because I'm still learning.

Bryan Mahoney

Okay, yeah — learning. That's fair.

Jyoti Malik

I'm like, what is everybody saying, what's the signal versus the noise in all of this? I think there's two things to this. One is customers — we have to assume all established customers are using these platforms, these chatbots, and asking questions. It's not a fad, it's not something that's happening only to a small segment of customers. So yes, we need to be showing up — how do we show up, where are these chatbots sourcing their data from? Reddit always comes up, popularity. And I don't think you can miss the boat on that one, because it's already happening, and those who already have good brand signals, trusted signals, and a lot of credible content are going to have an advantage — a first-mover advantage. If you don't have that, you really have to build toward it. Now the other piece is when the agents start shopping — when the customer is somewhat removed from the equation. So you'll have the human customers, and then you have the agent customers. I think you will always have human customers, right?

Bryan Mahoney

I sure hope so.

Jyoti Malik

I hope so too. I want to be in a world where I'm a romantic.

Bryan Mahoney

I love being a consumer. I don't want that to go away.

Jyoti Malik

And then a subset of the purchases, the transactions, depending — also depending on the kind of product, what industry you're in. Is it a very involved purchase, or is it just an essential commodity? You'll have to cater to those as well. So I don't think that time has come yet where you can abandon talking to a human customer and just cater to the agents. I think humans are always going to be involved, and we hope they are. It's about — humans are using these AI chatbots and platforms to engage, research, learn, and shop directly, which we've just started seeing over the last couple of weeks. You have to be on that, without completely abandoning the human side and solely catering to agents. I think that's a ways out. Let's see how that evolves, and to what degree — it's about being ready, versus abandoning whatever you were doing and what the core of your business is. I'd probably spend about 5% of my time thinking about that particular thing right now.

Bryan Mahoney

Yeah, I think it's about being ready. How do you get ready, or what advice would you have for someone to get ready, from the point of view of first-party data?

Jyoti Malik

First-party data too—

Bryan Mahoney

So, as soon as agents are shopping on your behalf, how does that change the approach you'd normally take to first-party data? Or is it too soon to say what first-party data we're going to be able to get back?

Jyoti Malik

It's an interesting question. I'd say I'm in the very early stages of even thinking about it, but just to share some early thoughts — I think when you take a human out of the equation, you have to reduce the friction even more. So now you have to be very thoughtful. A human can step away from the computer, maybe call, do some research, speak to a friend, or whatever, and make a decision — or come back to your site a couple of days later. That's a different kind of engagement. When it's an AI agent, you really have to have quality data — know how that AI agent is going to rank your product amongst all the choices available to it, how it's going to understand and learn about your product. That's the GEO part — you have to provide enough context. So looking at your data and assessing it for readiness for agentic commerce — that part I think is really important, and we're actually kind of embarking on that journey to do that. What exactly will need to happen, how exactly, all your data will have to evolve. And then the question you just called out — a very important one — I'm very interested in what kind of data you'll get back.

Bryan Mahoney

Yeah, I know — I'm worried, I haven't answered that yet.

Jyoti Malik

Yeah, yeah.

Bryan Mahoney

Right now, the optimist in me thinks, well, I'm going to get a lot of first-party data back — the agent is really just placing the order on behalf of the customer, on my channel. But the worst-case scenario is that you're operating on a channel that's going to obfuscate that from you. I think about the use case where I know an agent just placed this order on your behalf, but I'm really excited that you're my customer — I have your email address, I want to send you a lifecycle email that says, what do you think about the product? That's different — we have to think about it differently as marketers. But if all I can do is drop-ship the order to you, and I can't actually have you as my customer, I start to be less optimistic about that as a channel. I hope that's just a new way for some people to shop for certain things, removing more friction from the checkout process — saving a click. But otherwise, I still, as a brand, hope to have an opportunity to interface with the customer. I'm prepared for everything and anything. I'm also hearing some people worried about the economics of the channel — we're increasingly operating in a world under margin pressure, and there's not more margin for you and payment processing for you. At a certain point, we can't keep passing these costs along to the consumer. So I'm cautiously optimistic about where we go here.

Jyoti Malik

It's funny you talked about economics, because I think ads are coming.

Bryan Mahoney

Yeah, the ads are coming. Payment processing on top of payment processing. If you're delivering the customer and removing the friction, I'm willing, as a brand, to pay for that — but I think there are reasonable limits. As you think about being omnichannel, and thinking about the channels, and having visibility into channel profitability and the levers you have — sometimes you just have to go where your customers are, but other times you have influence over where you want your customers to be. I think having that point of view is really important.

Jyoti Malik

Yes, you'll have to get very clear on that, and that's what will keep you grounded — otherwise you're continuously getting swayed. I was reading a really interesting article about what agentic e-commerce will mean for shopping — not what AI will mean for shopping in general — and there was a conversation about how Costco is going to be immune to a lot of this. People love their Costco membership, people will go and shop at Costco. There's a very loyal base — say, for Trader Joe's — I mean, it's grocery, super competitive. But they've established their identity, and they have a customer base that resonates with that identity. So you'll have to have that kind of pull — you'll have to think about ways of creating pull and getting customers to interact with you where it works for you as a brand, versus continuously just bleeding margin. Like you said, we can't always keep passing the cost along to the customer.

Bryan Mahoney

No, definitely not — it's still so important, I think. I really appreciated something you said earlier, around the hidden cost that no one thinks about, of acquiring a customer and then losing them, having to reacquire them and reacquire them — that doesn't work. I think the way we protect against that is by having a good relationship with that customer — we have to be really thoughtful about it. I'm going to run us out of time here, and I feel like we could spend the next hour talking about these things, but I'm curious if I can sneak one other question in. We've talked about agentic e-commerce, for better or worse — how about AI behind the scenes, for you and the team? Is there a tool or tools the team is using to unlock some efficiencies? Has it been what you expected, if you've tried it? Have you been surprised, have you been disappointed? I'm trying to get a really honest point of view on all of this — I speak to people and ask the same question, and a lot of them say it looked really good and then it didn't really work. I haven't heard many people say it's changed their lives — I think we might get there — but I'm curious what you've tried, and what the reaction has been so far.

Jyoti Malik

I could speak to two examples — one where it's really helped, and one where we tested it and went back to a different approach. First, digital channels — social media, commerce, all of that coming together — the need for content is really blowing up, and we have to keep scaling with that, and refresh content much faster than we used to. So we're using AI tools to create content, brainstorm, do research — I think that's really helpful. It also democratizes this to a great extent — I have somebody on my team who's not a creator, not a creative team member, but she'll say, oh, I need to create this banner, and she did it in ChatGPT, and it looked amazing, and it got deployed. So optimizations like that can be done by broader teams, versus everything having to go through the creative funnel and waiting five or six weeks to get the output back. So we're finding it very useful in different forms — optimization, creation, pure research, generating ideas, and deploying.

Bryan Mahoney

Yeah, that thought partner — those tools are really shortening the feedback loops. If I have a bit of writer's block, it's, oh, let's generate some ideas. But the human is still executing on the final idea.

Jyoti Malik

Absolutely — that's where I feel the utility is very much there. That's something we've embraced now, as far as connecting with human beings is concerned. For customers, AI chatbots — I think beyond the basics, where is my package, a few questions like that — anything beyond that, the capability isn't there, at least in our experience. And second, do you really want to hand over that critical moment of engagement to an AI agent, versus having human beings who can come up with creative options and solutions when needed, or build that relationship with the customer? That's where I think it's important to drive a balance, and be very thoughtful.

Bryan Mahoney

And perhaps when the relationship is already in a fragile place too — we might already be on thin ice, and how much risk are we willing to take? But now maybe we can give content tools to agents to help come up with really creative answers, faster, better — but I still want that human in the loop.

Jyoti Malik

Absolutely.

Bryan Mahoney

That's a really interesting perspective — maybe a time-saver, a cost-saver, or a brand-saver, for people listening who are being told they should replace their entire CX team with chatbots, and why haven't they done it yet. So hearing it from someone who's had a chance to look at it at a brand like Belkin is super helpful. Jyoti, this has been amazing — I want to keep chatting, there are so many questions I didn't get to about your technology stack and how you're thinking about data, but I'm going to have to invite you back, because I've absolutely run us out of time. A real pleasure, and thank you so much for sharing your knowledge — I'd love to have you back on a future episode.

Jyoti Malik

Absolutely happy too — it's been really fun chatting. Thank you for the wonderful questions and the conversation.